Inside the Daedalus Roadmap w/ Charles Hoskinson & SE7EN Labs

introduce yourself, explain how you got involved in deadless and what you do in the project and yeah so I kind of got involved the project was originally going to land at drip drops but we had some people at drip drops that didn't want to be involved with it or were no longer with drip drops they were just like shareholders and stuff and then we had others that wanted to come in and help out with it like Sam and so that's where seven labs came from this kind of a coalition of the willing so you know I'm not kind of in a leadership role there I'm just a developer and I worked part-time on on dataless stuff where I focused on first where some of the early well usually they hand me the tough stuff so I was handed the the mithral integration so fast sync and then most recently I've been handed the depth integration so making dataless talk to our depth on cardano that's kind of what I've been working on lately nice um so we actually haven't released it yet but the code is merged for that depth feature isn't it it's it is merged it's not I would say it's not a hundred percent there so like it does work you could talk to the apps but there's some some rough edges and corners on it so things like we're making up a lot of ground from you know when when dataless just wasn't keeping up with the DAP ecosystem so we kind of missed the whole NFT craze we missed the whole token craze and dataless you know tokens are just a text description and dataless there's there's nothing like that there today so some other members of our team Adam Dean is going to be picking up making tokens great again and dataless um so yeah what what I've done is kind of the the core low level guts of making sure that communicating and working with DAPs is secure and then Adam is going to kind of come in and and make things pretty so that's that's kind of where we're at on that very cool um so yeah we're seven labs all of us wear multiple hats um you probably know Andrew from Maneta um Adam Dean works on Eclacia um Kyle is working on a project called River Arc there's lots of cool stuff coming out of seven labs um so that's who seven labs is um and uh I guess Charles um so uh we started off here, deadless hadn't been maintained a whole lot for a while um and then um these guys uh through drip drops basically started maintaining it so um how do you think how that's been gone well you know it was always interesting because uh I was in Japan not too long ago in a Japanese person pull me aside said you know you can't let deadless die and I said why is that he said I will never trust another wallet other than deadless deadless is the only wallet I've ever used for cardano I never want to leave so this is just like the brand that will never die and people forget that deadless at one point had 100% of the cardano users because it was the first and it was the largest wallet um deadless kind of has a lot of problems in it that you guys are are systematically resolving uh the biggest is that it has become way too expensive uh in terms of time and effort to run a full node you know you know when you would install the old deadless it would take several days and that was just a really bad user experience um and deadless was really also built as a pre Shelley pre-Gogen asset it was the first wallet so it was never really built for a great staking experience and it was never really built for a good death experience so yeah those three demons the slay um the speed and performance demon uh modernization in terms of the staking experience and modernization in terms of the experience of using uh depth inside the system so uh we got out of the wallet game as a reference wallet because the other problem this was us as iO we were the reference builders and so we were allowed to build reference infrastructure like a reference node or a reference wallet but we weren't really allowed to monetize that you know the community would be pretty upset if you know suddenly ads were in deadless or you know we were charging a transaction fee or subscription or something like that well we're also building open source public goods it's okay for a company like seven labs or anesthesia or sunday to take infrastructure and commercialize it because they're offering a product whereas input output is the protocol builder and it's really supposed to build the reference software and reference sauce were supposed to be not commercialized so this was another reason why deadless kind of went into a state of disrepair you know we had a lot of ideas of what to do with it but then we said well the minute we start implementing those ideas you have to have some opinions like that sticking experience is a great example uh there's all kinds of partnerships and other things and your company has ideas about who's a good derep and and who's a uh a good stake pull operator and who's not so obviously your products will express those ideas and people who agree with you would like to be part of that people disagree with you will choose different products and services and that's a free market if you're a reference engineer and Charles Hoskinson's deciding suddenly the reference engineer the people building the neutral software are making decisions on who's a good derep or who's a good stake pull operator that's not really a good situation to be in so that's one of the reasons why this software on our side kind of decayed the other thing was that there was certain technology that we built for deadless historically and it just took a really long time to get done myth roll was a great example of that where we had written the myth roll paper and designed myth roll many years ago uh but we just never got it into the network until recently so we kind of built myth roll to vastly improve the user experience of uh a deadless uh but it just it never got integrated until you guys did it so it's really exciting to see a group of people take this on and say hey we want to make having a full node sexy and we and I also was really cool is for the first time ever you can connect a full node to an agent you know so in addition to having full nodes you also now have this concept of let my agent use that full node and this becomes its gateway and interface into the card on our network and it doesn't have to trust third parties and so I think actually the usability is going to go way way up uh and there's all kinds of really cool patterns that people can develop so instead of for example calling an API you could use tail scale have Hermé's bought and it can go over tail scale and talk to your deadless node for your desktop computer and you can use that as your interface and you don't have to ever trust anybody and instead of that requiring like a degree in computer science and years of experience as a dev ops person it can be completely configured basically by AI so those types of patterns are really cool because you can massively improve the security of the system and give back to the system because running a full node actually gives back to the system unlike light nodes but you don't have to sacrifice anymore on the DAP experience the the the staking delegation experience and you don't have to sacrifice anymore on the speed and efficiency because those have been resolved problems and it's really exciting that there's a small highly motivated team that actually wants to you know make this a product and grow this as a product uh that's there to take custody of it so we were very very glad to see you guys take this on and I think you're gonna do a far better job than uh we ever did with it. Thank you Charles we really appreciate that um yeah so I think a good transition from there I mean um so deadless is the community node it's funded by the community um and with that uh we basically came out and did a treasury proposal this summer and uh we got 77% approval rating mandate from the community which I just want to say thank you to all you community members that made it possible for us uh to be able to put this much focus on deadless um I said when we were running the proposal that I never wanted to see deadless die and that basically I would do whatever I could in my personal hands to keep it alive even if we didn't get funded but we got funded and now we have things like CP 30 support we have things like hardware wallet support and all sorts of other really interesting things coming down the pipeline um so um Andrew um what other uh cool things do you want to talk about that you really see deadless dead here in the future so as we get ready to roll out the CP 30 support and that is being able to connect the dApps we're going to need to bring the dApps into the fold and start talking to them so we're going to need if you have a dApp uh we need to start talking to you now and if you're especially on preview or pre-prod um eventually uh moussashi dojo we're going to want to start talking to you and start getting your pull request to bring your dApp into the datalist app browser so you know whether you're a small little dApp or whether you're a big enterprise dApp like the real-fi guys uh we want you to be integrated directly into datalist so that those traditional users who typically don't use dApps can now be brought into the dat ecosystem on cardano and for the first time for a lot of them experience everything that cardano people have built so uh we're going to be doing a lot more communication in the future so you know make sure you're following the the seven labs account and we're going to start talking to you as a debt builder community to make sure that the dApp browser highlights you guys your dApps highlights the community and make sure that that you guys are discoverable there uh with you know rich metadata great icons um so people can really learn about everything that's happening inside of cardano and yeah even if you aren't a dApp developer if there's a dApp you particularly really like to use contact your favorite dApp developers and tell them you really want to see their dApp and debtless yeah absolutely so um you know we don't have an official PR process yet but eventually we would like it to to be where all you have to do is just um you know we'll have a JSON file somewhere in the datalist repository and you will just add information about your dApp and which networks it is supported on what you know what URL for each network you have and then it should start showing up in in future builds um we're not going to certify each and every dApp ourselves we're gonna test some of them uh so it is kind of a you know buyer-viewer system uh but yeah i think we we know enough about the the current popular dApps on on cardano to know which one of them you know are active in the community which one of them which ones of them are uh you know care about security and and care about the the datalist user base or they want to expand into that new user base and again it is truly you know one of the last green fields on on cardano because these users they've only experienced you know staking and maybe a little bit of governance because we just released governance i'm not too long ago so this will be their first time getting to experience dApps uh we can talk a little bit about the architecture that we're building for this because it's different than everything else out there so typical light wallets you go to a browser you browse to a website and your your light wallet is a browser plugin now datalist doesn't work like that datalist is a desktop old school electron application so we thought about doing several different architectures one of them was like oh okay we'll just do a kind of a little light plugin in the browser and then have it communicate over local host to your uh to your wallet well that seemed to very very dangerous because that's very hard to protect that tunnel or encrypt that tunnel so if the if the environment is hostile like if the windows machine has malware on it you could end up with somebody just being able to tell datalist to sign transactions on your behalf so the only way we thought of that could truly make a secure environment was to keep the dApps inside datalist itself and then sandbox them off so that they can't access any other parts of the datalist wallet so it's kind of gonna pop up in its own little browser window when you click click on a dApp and it's isolated to its own little little sandbox it can't escape that that's the dApp can't escape the sandbox and it can only talk to datalist through the cip30 connector that's been injected into it so that's kind of the approach we're taking as opposed to uh you know just having a free for all where you can connect through a browser there will be a feature in in the diagnostic screen where like if there's a dApp that's not yet in our dApp browser so if people make a new dApp you can you know still get to it but that's kind of a buyer be where a situation if it's not yet in the dApp browser one of the things